The rebel---Darfur

[Mowhawk]

Salaam callaykum bro & friends.

I hope you all are enjoying life.

Last time we exchanged views, you metioned the "hypocrisy on Darfur", but you asked first to check the old post about Darfur that has been discussed here, and regretfully it has been purged and not available even in the archives.

Yourself, as an Arab citizen living in the Middle East, what are your views on the Darfur problem, and what do you mean by "the Darfur hypocrisy by other Muslim or Arab leaders"?

Thanks in advance.

[The rebel]

Mowhawk

Thank you brother for the topic and sorry for giving you hard time finding the topic.

First of all, as a Middle Eastern, Darfur doesn't fit in with our common mindsets. It is, in fact, a huge embarassing for us, because it doesn't fit in with our usual stereotypes (Christian Crusaders - or Jewish stooges- aggressing Arab/Muslims). So, regimes here did not act up. Specially big Arab countries and forget small oil states.. What I meant was Egypt and Saudi Arabia. Simply, Middle East regimes, for some pragmatic reason, not interested in challenging Khartoum.

Why is that? Let us start from there...

[Daanyeer]

[quote="Mowhawk"]Salaam callaykum bro & friends.

I hope you all are enjoying life.

Last time we exchanged views, you metioned the "hypocrisy on Darfur", but you asked first to check the old post about Darfur that has been discussed here, and regretfully it has been purged and not available even in the archives.

Yourself, as an Arab citizen living in the Middle East, what are your views on the Darfur problem, and what do you mean by "the Darfur hypocrisy by other Muslim or Arab leaders"?

Thanks in advance.[/quote]


Mowie MAGACYO BADNE,


HASHU MAANKEY IGA GADDEE MA MISAAR BE LIQDEY ?



BTW BRAVO !!!!!!!!!!!!! the TECHNIQUE u used to SHOW that the THREAD has many VISITORS (click, click, click...so and so click till u hand is TIRED with CLICKING)



....I am the MASTER of my chest; i am the CAPTAIN of my fist....


Ur Brother With Intellectual Glasses In S'net !!!!!!!!!!

YYY Col\Prof Daanyeer YYY

[Mowhawk]

The rebel

Thanks for the feedback. The situation in Sudan is a complicated one. At the sametime, the corrupt and dictatorship of Arab and Islamic governments care more about their own power and lifestyles than the lives of their own people. They do not want to help the people of Darfur, and specially Egypt, which has special interests in Sudan are only interested in supporting the status quo. Why would they care about Darfur and black Muslims? It is sad that the suffering and dying of Muslim people is a serious horror and more sadder when one tribe claims to be Arabs and had a field day slaughterin another who claims to be Africans on behalf of a so called Arab regime.

I don’t believe in conspiracy theory and all I read from Arab sources is the viewpoint of those who support and justify the actions of the Sudanese government. Even though I agree that the Sudanese government did not start the fight, they did help and even participated in the slaughter of the Darfurians. Sadly, those sources are only worried about the western interests rather than the black Muslim lives at stake here. Surprisingly, both Egypt and many of the larger Muslim countries such as Saudi Arabia are also under the thump of those same western forces. That is why their arguments doesn’t make sense to me. Imagine if your home was burned, your wife and relatives raped and children killed, would you care if “infidels” assisted you? For example, if this happened to Muslim Arabs, we will all hit our chests like Daanyeer and say why doesn’t the world do something about it, but now that it’s done in Sudan by Muslims against Muslims, no Muslim country wants to involve itself, and at the same time they do criticize those who do want to get involved.

Read this article.

http://islamonline.net/English/News/200 ... le03.shtml

or

http://www.islamonline.net/English/News ... le01.shtml

This war amazes me and reminds me of some Somali tribes who claim that they are descended from Yemen and mistreated Somali Bantus because of that. We Somalis share the mindset that you talked above. The tribes that are at loggerheads at Darfur are all very dark skinned, and do all speak Arabic, and are all Muslims and dress and look the same way as the black-Arabs of Sudan. If you stood both groups side by side, I doubt you would be able to distinguish the two. The only difference is one identifies with a specific African tribe while the other identifies as Arab. That's the only difference.

I’m eagerly waiting for your second installment.

Daanyeer

Tiriig posted from Orromio-land, and can’t find a hubby in Hargeisa and Burco and is searching for an Orromo lad, why did she abandon you?

http://www.somalinet.com/forum/viewtopi ... ht=#770689

[Gacalisa]

Ok this doesnt really pertain to the subject, but answer me. The North is Muslims i know, its also arabs right?


because i am sure it is, and i having the longest arguments with my friends, and they argued that there NO Arabs in Sudan, and the war was just about Muslims and Christians, and race didnt really play a role.

[Mowhawk]

Gacalliso

Technically you are right, but it is more complicated. We are discussing about Darul-fur which means the land of Fur (Fur meaning the African tribe who live in Dar-fur). They are 100% Muslims and 85% of the population of the Furs were xaafidul Quraan, more than any Muslim country. Other tribes such as the Janjaweed are also blacks like the Fur's, but claim to be from Arab descendants, and they got the nod and support from the Khartoum regime (who claim to be Arabs) to wipe out the Fur African Muslim tribe in Darfur after they rebelled against the regime in Khartoum. 400,000 were killed and 2 million Darfurians were forced to flee their homes. Lately, the Janjaweeds turned also against the Sudanese government. Sudan means the land of the blacks. Yes, the Darfurians are African Muslims while the regime in Khartoum claims to be Arabs. That is why I'm discussing this issue with The rebel as an Arab vs African Muslim issue.

The South is totally a different game.

[DamallaXagare]

What I don't understand Why International care is given to Sudan and not Somalia.


I think I opened a thread calling for the intervention of Somalia.

[The rebel]

Mowhawk

Well said. But let us agree that what's happenning in Darfur is nothing to do with race. What makes it worse is that it's Muslim against Muslim. But religion, unfortunately doesn't factor into this current situation. What you have here is centuries of tribal fighting being acted out in this century

The tribes that initially fought are not even Arab and African. They are both African tribes, I cannot tell one from the other as you mentioned, because they all black, got kinky, curly hair. It just so happens that one of the tribes speaks Sudanese Arabic while the other speaks Sudanesse Arabic as well as their native darfurian. Everybody knows what an Arab looks like. An African cannot be Arab. Speaking Arabic does not make one an Arab. Many of us speak English that does not mean we are Englishmen. In Africa Tribes fight all the time in all African countries. Even in seemingly peaceful countries, tribal tensions exist and there are the occasional flare-ups. Sometimes it threatens the very fabric of a nation like the one it did in Somalia, Rwanda, and Congo. Sometimes it can be contained.

Sudan is the largest African country and in it lives Arabs and Africans of Bantuic, Nilotic and Cushitic extractions. It is a small Africa by itself, a micro-Africa if you please. It has been in civil war for the like the last twenty-five years, mostly in the South. Millions of people have died because of war and the after-effects of war. When a peace deal was finally sealed anew, fire corrupts in the west. Does it sound like a coincidence to you?

The truth is tribes were just fighting over limited resources in a desert state. Now you got rebels demanding secession, and this is not acceptable for Arab national security. We have in Middle East other minorities, be it Kurdish, Arman, Nubians etc. Do you think Arabs can afford to divide Arab lands like that? Who will benifit from dividing Suddan?

I'm not trying to lift Blame from the Sudanese government. They are definitely responsible for their heavy handedness in trying to contain the menace. Nevertheless, they are not the only one to be blammed. The tribes are responsible, Arabs, are responsible too because they did not try to challenge the Khartoum.

Darfur case as you said, very complicated and foriegner hands flamming it. Be it Arab neighbors and Chad or Westerns.

However, if we care our own people, Arabs would do something for those poor defendless people before West get excuse to interfere our affairs.

[Mowhawk]

The rebel

Great points mate. It is good to see a good humane person like you saddened by what is taking place in Darul-Fur. Though I agree with you on most of what you stated above, kindly, let me comment on some of the points you made.

“But let us agree that what's happening in Darfur is nothing to do with race. What makes it worse is that it's Muslim against Muslim. But religion, unfortunately doesn't factor into this current situation. What you have here is centuries of tribal fighting being acted out in this century.”

As I always believed and said, the Darfur question is a complex one, however one of the underlying factors now is it took a racial outlook that emanates from a historical established racial mindset. But, I agree with you again that the issues involved in Darul-Fur are much deeper. As you made it clear that an “An African cannot be Arab”, and concluded with “Do you think Arabs can afford to divide Arab lands like that? Who will benifit from dividing Suddan?” The whole area is called Darul-Fur and may I ask you, if they can’t be Arabs and be treated as an equal, why do they have to share their land with Arab Sudanese? Though once more, I agree with you about the history of the tribal hostility, also I disagree with your statement that “what is happening in Darfur has nothing to do with race”, because I believe that the conflict has an underlying racial factor.

Having said that, we all know that there are good and bad people in every community. Not that I think that all the Sudanese people are responsible for what is done on their names by the Sudanese government, or are racists. Just like good Americans who oppose George Bush’s policies, or here many Australians who oppose the policies of “Dubya’s pet”, John Howard. Saaxib rebel, let me share with you what I found out in Somalia during a trip I made some 2 and half years ago. Somalia has been a chaotic place for over 15 years, and I was amazed to learn that most Somalis in Somalia don’t care that much about the tribal wars and were yearning for peace, and were sick of being held hostages by few warlords and their militias. To my surprise, I found out that many Somalis in the Diaspora are more tribalists than those left behind, because back home they moved on with time, while many Somalis in the Diaspora became static in time-wise, and are stuck with a by-gone era. Their memory of Somalia was frozen with time in 1991, or some other time. For them, the scars are still fresh. So, let us not blame the Sudanese people and sow hatred towards our brothers and sisters.

We (me and friends) always have those kinds of talk and exchange differing opinions on such issues. I heard from my own brother argue that if the Darfurians were not black, the Islamic world would have noticed them. At times, I do believe that most of the global citizens don't care about black Africans and feel the world would be a better place if African blacks never existed. While Africans suffer, colonial and post-colonial exploitation of African resources is well recorded, and continues to this day and age. Only the semantics has changed, and with this post-post-modern global exploitation called globalization, it is far better for the rich countries that Africans disappear and confiscate their resources, but that is another topic. To be honest with you that is why what's taking place in Darfur is based on a general lowly attitude of Africans and Blacks held by, not only Arabs, but many other people and Muslims as well. That is why it does seem that we Muslims are far better at ignoring our faults and pointing out the faults of others, rather than taking care of our own issues. The evil of racism is well and alive in most Muslim communities and political leaders.

I do agree with you that the Sudan issue has a multi-factored dimension that demands viewing it in totality. Most importantly, I strongly believe that we (Muslims) should never deny the suffering of the Fur people. In-fact we should actively help and support them. We can't deny the role that sections of the Sudanese community played in concert with the Sudanese government. Furthermore, it is a common knowledge that Sudan remains a strategic threat to US interests with its potential significant oil reserves and close relationship with China, that was perceived to warrant Sudan to be kept under the international microscope, and as a method to keep political pressure on the country, ensuring that it can’t gain political stability. The French, with the aim also to destabilize the Sudanese regime, uses Chad. It happened in the past and is currently happening all over Africa.

Bro, what sickens me most is the silent code in the Muslim World in regards to Africa in general, and the Diaspora in particular. Even amongst the Australian Muslim organizations, not one has raised or, addressed the suffering of the Fur people and the Sudan issue publicly. I monitored and met with similar shock most of the global Muslim organizations in the Diaspora on this issue. There is no pan-Africanism, and we African Muslims look towards our global Muslim brethrens, instead of towards our African non-Muslim bros/sis, and that is why we misguidedly believe that there should be no pan-Arabism and Arab League. That is why the Fur people expected fellow Sudanese Arabs to treat them as an equal, but instead were subjected to as second class citizens. They are not calling for succession, but a piece of the action or the pie. Like the current agreement between Khartoum and the SPLA in South, they want to share with them the revenues of the newly acquired oil wealth, and have a voice federally by the appointment of Fur people representatives to the ruling elite. It was easy to accommodate them and that is exactly what is on the table within their current talks, which the Sudanese government had so far accepted.

Mate, this is not a criticism to your character, because you only expressed a realistic point view shared by your fellow Arabs, and I admire that. Pray for us, maybe we Somalis can learn to build this kind of bond among ourselves, and help spread peace and love to all our African brothers and sisters.

This is exactly how many of us feel and is a nice conclussion:

“However, if we care our own people, Arabs would do something for those poor defendless people before West get excuse to interfere our affairs.”

Bro, one more silly question and don’t be obliged to answer. This has raised my eyebrows and I’m curious to know the general view of the Arabs and in particular your countrymen. Let me remind you that most Somalis don’t consider Bantus as Somalis.

“An African cannot be Arab”

Are black Arabs, and in particular Saudi Blacks considered as Saudi Arabs? How do they define them as a group? In America, if you are black, it doesn’t matter if you are 20th American generation, you are an African American. But a first generation European automatically becomes American.

DamallaXagare

Bro, you asked;

“What I don't understand Why International care is given to Sudan and not Somalia.”

Didn’t you hear what is happening in Mogadiscio? Who do you think is involved?

”I think I opened a thread calling for the intervention of Somalia.”

I have called for similar initiatives, but I believe that only Muslim troops can succeed in Somalia, and I hope it is beyond the drawing cards.

[The rebel]

Mowhawk

I have great respect for your opinion but still believe nothing to do with the race of fighters in Darfur. People discriminate each other whatever they are Arabs or not. If we don't have anything to discriminate each othe, we would create it. Just look at Somalia.

Arabs or not, tribal war is an African problem. And usually it can metamorph into anything. Western media make it look like Arabs are Killing Africans when the reality is that all are Africans.

To answer your question about Saudi blacks. There are two types of them. First one are blacks brought here as slaves way before Islam and after it. Those we call them for their race. In Arabic Zonooj. If you ask them they will tell you that they are former slaves for Arab tribes. Usually they carry the tribe name they used to be their slaves. For example he would say " He was from Bani Tamim" Those were his ancestors' masters.

The other type, are those came with Hajiij. They came and stayed. You know there was no such borders. Those are African and they tell you they are from Senegal or Chat but they are Tabi'i.

[Mowhawk]

The rebel

Bro, thanks for answering my querry, and let us agree to disagree on the racial question, and glad that we established an agreement on the bigger picture.

Let me announce that all Muslims are asked to help those brothers and sisters through a Muslim organization as a sadaqah, and this organisation is present on the grounds, and are willing to work with the Darfurians to build their lives once peace is achieved there.

It is a good Islamic charity organization.

http://www.islamic-relief.com/submenu/Appeal/sudan.htm

Please all help.

[TZ Somali]

I believe is worth when dealing with the crisis of dafur, to first and foremost analyse the basic attitude of Arabs culturally or otherwise in relation to their perception and approach of anything Black. As history may testify, Arabs have always seen Black Africans as lesser human being, this blant act of racism is not the extreme in the Arab Society and is merely the accepted norm across the middleast.

Throughout history in this turmoil region african have been reduced to forced slavery against their will both christian and muslim alike.

Having said im compel to conclude with this bold assumption, the starvation brought upon the innocent black souls of dafur and the gross injutices they have endured is not either a conflict based on pursue of natural resource nor a war brought about by western world against the Arabs, but its a product of blatant rasicm engraved on the arab social, religious and political structure directed on the dafur blacks for daring to stand for what is theirs, and for anybody to entatertain the carnage engulfing these helpless people as war of ideology between the west and the arabs is in my view a gross ignorant based on denial of what has became fact and is to some extent an end result of paranoi of US (ARABS) against (THEM).


They have seldom seen the worse of human behaviour and befallen by the ills of the world and the global community is morally complicit in their suffering as we have choose to remain indifference to the injustices, atrocities and human misery directed towards you…the lest and last thing they need to see is some butthead arab or somali for that matter charaterisng their plight as mere war of ideology by western world directed the araBS.

Ponder these since 1986, Its been estimated by African Muslim Council (AMC) that Saudi goverment has deported back to africa close to 11 Milion legitimate pilgrims mostly aged women and men alike on the basis that they are not credible pilgrims but illegal immigrant mascurading as a guinuine pilgrims.


My question is how they determine if one is not a legitimate pilgrims or not?


What test and process if any that is there that can establish if these 11 milions lack the true intension?


We Somali (if Sijuis are included) have done a great de-service to our africa race, I think is time for Somali stop thinking and discarding your history for the benefit of been accepted as Arabs, where your physical appearance clearly state otherwise, in the eyes of arabs we will still be that "Himar" and "Abit", it pisses me off to see Somalis despicing their very history and denied and distance themselve from true sense and identity of been african.

FOR GODSAKE GET A GRIP.

[ERROR]

I bought George Clooney’s version of the story. it is about Arab Muslims massacring fellow non-arab muslims.

If you believe in dying for just cause darfur is the place to be.



[quote="Mowhawk"]Salaam callaykum bro & friends.

I hope you all are enjoying life.

Last time we exchanged views, you metioned the "hypocrisy on Darfur", but you asked first to check the old post about Darfur that has been discussed here, and regretfully it has been purged and not available even in the archives.

Yourself, as an Arab citizen living in the Middle East, what are your views on the Darfur problem, and what do you mean by "the Darfur hypocrisy by other Muslim or Arab leaders"?

Thanks in advance.[/quote]

[TZ Somali]

arabs don't have the moral high ground the issue of dafur....period