What's Wrong With God's Sense Of Morality?

avowedly-agnostic · Post by **avowedly-agnostic** » Sat Jun 24, 2006 12:37 am

"Surely, Allah does not forgive associating anything with Him, and He forgives whatever is other than that to whomever He wills." (al-Nisa 4:48 and 116)

The implication of the above verse is that Allah pardons all sins and crimes committed by Muslims not matter how henious, including those of mass murderers such as Saddam Hussein for example, yet metes out the most severest of tortures for pacifist good doers like Mahatma Ghandi, on the basis that the former proclaims the shahadah, while the latter doesn't, despite the fact that the latter has never lifted a finger against a soul, and has probably done more during his life time to promote humanitarianism, as well as having consistently worked for the improvement and betterment of human lives.

Doesn't sound terribly fair for a god who's supposedly "the most just" now does it?

mahamed99_sex · Post by **mahamed99_sex** » Sat Jun 24, 2006 12:42 am

adiga horta,i dont think you are somalian and true muslim.

let me tell you something go read the quran and come with something that makes common sense.

in theISLAM,only god knows where you gonna go when you die.just becuase you are muslim ,doesnt mean its guranteed you gonna go to heaven.for ALL we know anyone can go to heaven.its up to god.no one knows where you gonna go when you die.

another thing

avowedly-agnostic...I THINK YOU ARE AYAN HERSI.AND IF YOU ARE.GET THE FOCK OUTTA,YOU ILL SON OF BITACH.

mahamed99_sex · Post by **mahamed99_sex** » Sat Jun 24, 2006 12:44 am

AND WHO THE FOCK SAID THAT ALLAH WILL FORGIVE SADDAM HUSIEN AND PUNISH MAHADI GANDHI.

YOU KNOW WHAT,YOU NEED TO STOP SMOKING WEED,OBVISOULY ,ITSNT DOING YOU WELL.

SomaliLight · Post by **SomaliLight** » Sat Jun 24, 2006 12:57 am

Mahatma Ghandi said " God Loves the untouchables, and the widows who are forced to play dead while they live"

I never understood how anyone could hold hinduism in spirit, for when most hindus prayed they used to say "God for forbid we get reincarinated as a man" They used to pray that they would be freed from the cycle of death and rebirth and thier souls would be carried away by the great river to a peaceful end.

Everywhere in religion there is great disparity in man, to exist is to suffer ...But will it suffice to suffer if only to exist for mere few days??

avowedly-agnostic · Post by **avowedly-agnostic** » Sat Jun 24, 2006 1:16 am

Mahamed

Read the Quranic verse before you begin attacking me (and for the record, yes I did once try cannabis but the smell was off putting, and I never went near the stuf ever again). I didn't say that Saddam Hussein in particular shall be pardoned, rather mass murderers, gangsters, torturers and other criminals like him shall be forgiven by Allah- provided they don't "associate anyone with Allah" (i.e. provided they die as Muslims).

SLight

I don't understand what you're saying woman- get off the drugs.

My question is as follows, how can Islam maintain that god is "the most just" when there are serious discrepancies in his conduct?

He pardons evil doers that have committed mass atrocities against their fellow man, and enters them into "gardens under which rivers flow" (just because they so happened to be Muslims), whilst meting out severe torture to decent and kind human beings whom through out their lives have striven to help the poor and the needy on the basis that they didn't proclaim the shahadah.

SomaliLight · Post by **SomaliLight** » Sat Jun 24, 2006 1:22 am

lol@ Agnostic

i wasn't answering your question, i merely went off on a tangent dreaming about my Ghandi and hinduism. ..I really deliberatly don't care to comment on the malevolent nature of Allah. It has all been said and proven. Now, I don't know who the Hell Allah is, But the Great Father of Islam, Mohammed was not particularly attentive when it came to the technical consistancy of his idealogy. SO give him a break, he was only a man.

avowedly-agnostic · Post by **avowedly-agnostic** » Sat Jun 24, 2006 1:35 am

What, you mean to tell me that you're considering taking up the Hindu faith? Why who's going to sit with me on the fence? I can't sit there alone- why the mere thought of it brings back memory flashes of me sitting all alone by myself in the playground with no one to talk to during my lonely kindergarten years . Oh what painful memories. It means I'm going to have to agnosticise someone now.

Damn you woman. I'm going to miss having a sneak peak down your blouse whenever you were looking the other way toward the ice cream van.

Gedo_Boy · Post by **Gedo_Boy** » Sat Jun 24, 2006 1:42 am

Avowedly,

In any complete & pure ideology (scientific or otherwise), there are fundamental pillars and there are details. And as they say: "The devil is in the details."

If you don't have the capacity to understand details, sometimes you have to go to the fundamental pillars and use them as anchors. You should also know that those details MAY APPEAR to contradict the fundamental pillars, but it only APPEARS to do so due to our lack of comprehensive understanding.

The anchor in this case is that God WRONGS NO PERSON. Who or what goes to Hell and for what reasons are specific details on the Day of Judgement that you do not have knowledge of.

So leave the details to God.

I will respond in the same way that Moses responded to Pharoah.

When Pharoah asked Moses about the fate of the older generations who did not receive the mesage, Moses said that knowledge is with God and we can't judge (sura taha):

51. [Fir'aun (Pharaoh)] said: "What about the generations of old?"

52. [MÃ»sa (Moses)] said: "The knowledge thereof is with my Lord, in a Record. My Lord is neither unaware nor He forgets, "

avowedly-agnostic · Post by **avowedly-agnostic** » Sat Jun 24, 2006 2:09 am

[quote Gedo Boy] ...those details MAY APPEAR to contradict the fundamental pillars (of justice), but it only APPEARS to do so due to our lack of comprehensive understanding...The anchor in this case is that God WRONGS NO PERSON. Who or what goes to Hell and for what reasons are specific details on the Day of Judgement that you do not have knowledge of. [quote]

Your response seems to be two fold:

1) You recognise that pardoning murderers whilst torturing humanitarians just because the former is a Muslim and the latter is a non-Muslim "appears" immoral and unjust, but it only appears that way because the issue of justice is beyond our comprehension.

2) We have no foreknowledge of who will be admitted to heaven and who will be tortured in hell.

Dealing with your first point, to say that human beings don't understand how justice ought to be implemented is an insult to human intelligence. I think most people know how justice works: even a child knows that the good ought to be rewarded for their good work, and the evil should be punished for their evil deeds. To say that justice is a concept that is beyond the comprehension of intelligent human beings is ludicrous.

As regards your second point, the Quran and the hadith are quite clear on how god shall judge people. Those that proclaim the shahadah will be admitted into heaven, and those that don't shall be given a "severe punishment for all eternity". To deny this central tenet is to deny the Quran.

So the question remains: what kind of justice is it that condemns to hell for all eternity good and decent humanitarians, whilst on the other hand forgiving the real sinners that inflict suffering upon others just on the basis that the former is a non-Muslim and the latter a Muslim?

Is this at all just or ethical?

Freakishly_Free · Post by **Freakishly_Free** » Sat Jun 24, 2006 2:16 am

AA-You are so gay. Laughing

Gedo_Boy · Post by **Gedo_Boy** » Sat Jun 24, 2006 2:18 am

I told you God knows their fate not me.

I don't know Gandhi's fate:

(sura ahqaaf)

Say (O Muhammad SAW):"I am not a new thing among the Messengers (of AllÃ¢h) (i.e. I am not the first Messenger) nor do I know what will be done with me or with you. I only follow that which is revealed to me, and I am but a plain warner."

gurey25 · Post by **gurey25** » Sat Jun 24, 2006 2:23 am

[quote="SomaliLight"]Mahatma Ghandi said " God Loves the untouchables, and the widows who are forced to play dead while they live"

I never understood how anyone could hold hinduism in spirit, for when most hindus prayed they used to say "God for forbid we get reincarinated as a man" They used to pray that they would be freed from the cycle of death and rebirth and thier souls would be carried away by the great river to a peaceful end.

Everywhere in religion there is great disparity in man, to exist is to suffer ...But will it suffice to suffer if only to exist for mere few days??[/quote]
hinduism is wierd isnt it,
but it gave birth something more sublime
Budhism

avowedly-agnostic · Post by **avowedly-agnostic** » Sat Jun 24, 2006 2:33 am

Gedo boy

It seems to me like you recognise that the idea of torturing good, decent and caring people is an absurd one. Not only is it unjust, but it's also vindictively cruel, inhumane, and an unbefitting attribute for a "merciful" being.

The notion of hell is without a doubt one of the most effective psychological methods concocted by man to keep the masses in terror and fear of disobeying authority

Freakishly

Why call you me gay dear? I'm as masculine and macho a man as is possible.

Freakishly_Free · Post by **Freakishly_Free** » Sat Jun 24, 2006 2:35 am

AA-War dee cabaadka naga daa. Leave these poor muslims alone. I mean, it's hard being a muslim. Having you, an intellectual genius, rubbing their stupidity in their faces must really hurt.

avowedly-agnostic · Post by **avowedly-agnostic** » Sat Jun 24, 2006 2:39 am

Mrs. Free, I humbly receive my pat on the back, but I'm outraged that you should accuse me of taking it from the back. I demand that we meet up for coffe asap so we may clear this mess up.

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What's Wrong With God's Sense Of Morality?

What's Wrong With God's Sense Of Morality?