Human Rights Watch Has Lost its Moral Bearings
by Jonathan Cook
http://www.dissidentvoice.org/Dec06/Cook01.htm
Time to shut-down ”Human Rights” Watch & Amnesty Interna
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This General Forum is for general discussions from daily chitchat to more serious discussions among Somalinet Forums members. Please do not use it as your Personal Message center (PM). If you want to contact a particular person or a group of people, please use the PM feature. If you want to contact the moderators, pls PM them. If you insist leaving a public message for the mods or other members, it will be deleted.
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Steeler [Crawler2]
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This guy's arguments are so hollow it's hillarious. He talks about the occupation as if occupatión itself were illegitimate, which, according to international law, it is not. furthermore, he ignores the fact that the Palestinians are using the civilian population as active members of violent resistance. Using human shields to protect gunmen is not legitimate. It would be like the Germans surrounding a Waffen SS barracks to protect SS men at the close of WW II (which also would not have worked).
The truth is the Palestinians and Muslims in general don't want peace. They don't want a settlement. They don't regard Israel as legitimate. They don't want a two state solution. They want Israel to be destroyed, they believe that is religious obligation. Thus the only choice left to the Palestinians is to break their will by continuously ratcheting up the pressure, or ethnically cleanse the area from Arabs.
The truth is the Palestinians and Muslims in general don't want peace. They don't want a settlement. They don't regard Israel as legitimate. They don't want a two state solution. They want Israel to be destroyed, they believe that is religious obligation. Thus the only choice left to the Palestinians is to break their will by continuously ratcheting up the pressure, or ethnically cleanse the area from Arabs.
What a crap,you always repeat here
The truth is Isreal doesn't want peace at all.
that 2002 the Arab and the Muslim world has offer Isreal for peace http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/1844214.stm
[q]
Israel is required to withdraw from all territories seized in 1967 - the West Bank, Gaza, East Jerusalem and the Golan Heights.
In return, all Arab states offer normal diplomatic relations - including a peace deal that recognises Israel's right to exist and secures its borders.
The plan was formally announced at an Arab League summit in Beirut in March 2003.[q]
Europe has agree it too " EU will not Recognize any Borders but 1967 Border or Agreed Borders with the Palestinian"
http://www.eutopic.lautre.net/coordinat ... rticle=796
Isreal reject peace offer coz isreal doesn't want Peace .
So madcow the truth is as you know, we know all that the one who doesn't want peace is Isreal and not the Muslims
The truth is Isreal doesn't want peace at all.
that 2002 the Arab and the Muslim world has offer Isreal for peace http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/1844214.stm
[q]
Israel is required to withdraw from all territories seized in 1967 - the West Bank, Gaza, East Jerusalem and the Golan Heights.
In return, all Arab states offer normal diplomatic relations - including a peace deal that recognises Israel's right to exist and secures its borders.
The plan was formally announced at an Arab League summit in Beirut in March 2003.[q]
Europe has agree it too " EU will not Recognize any Borders but 1967 Border or Agreed Borders with the Palestinian"
http://www.eutopic.lautre.net/coordinat ... rticle=796
Isreal reject peace offer coz isreal doesn't want Peace .
So madcow the truth is as you know, we know all that the one who doesn't want peace is Isreal and not the Muslims
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Steeler [Crawler2]
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Mosliima
There is indeed a faction within Israel that is every bit as intractable as the Palestinians. I would not argue otherwise. I was not attempting to frame this in terms of "Israel good - Arabs bad". Rather they are all bad. HOWEVER, the majority of the Israeli people are willing to trade land for peace. The majority of the Palestinian people are NOT. Poll after poll has asserted this. Indeed Hamas, which you support, has non-recognition of Israel as part of its platform.
Of course, it is no longer 1967. A return to those boundaries is not possible. The Israelis will need some guarantees on the wailing wall and other parts of Jerusalum. It has several "settlements" which have populations over 100,000 people. There will obviously have to be a land swap to make that work. And last, but not least, now the issue of water has to be worked out. The majority of the water in the region is coming from the Golan. Water access is and will remain a huge issue.
But as always is the case with the Arabs, they offer too little, too late. If they had made that same offer in 1967, they would have had a deal now. But each time they start a war, they lose a war, then they say "we're only kidding" and want to go back to the starting line. It doesn't work that way.
There is indeed a faction within Israel that is every bit as intractable as the Palestinians. I would not argue otherwise. I was not attempting to frame this in terms of "Israel good - Arabs bad". Rather they are all bad. HOWEVER, the majority of the Israeli people are willing to trade land for peace. The majority of the Palestinian people are NOT. Poll after poll has asserted this. Indeed Hamas, which you support, has non-recognition of Israel as part of its platform.
Of course, it is no longer 1967. A return to those boundaries is not possible. The Israelis will need some guarantees on the wailing wall and other parts of Jerusalum. It has several "settlements" which have populations over 100,000 people. There will obviously have to be a land swap to make that work. And last, but not least, now the issue of water has to be worked out. The majority of the water in the region is coming from the Golan. Water access is and will remain a huge issue.
But as always is the case with the Arabs, they offer too little, too late. If they had made that same offer in 1967, they would have had a deal now. But each time they start a war, they lose a war, then they say "we're only kidding" and want to go back to the starting line. It doesn't work that way.
The whole world and the Muslim world has told Isreal time and time again from 1967..give back the accupied land and go back from 1967 border.. but Isreal refuse to do so. No need land swap, the population settlers are 250.000.. it takes 1 month to move them back. When the jew claim the land of palestine after 2000 years A return for them was possible as they claim, why would in palestinian case now not be possible, while the numbers are very less now and are no suffering? the jew claim the land by return with millions of them. why would it be not possible to move 250.000 of them while in the past 750.000 palestinian in one time were thrown out of their land.
the bottom line is the land Isreal accupied now is illigal accupation as international law and the UN-resolution says and should be return back.
step1; Israel must complay the UN-resolution, move those people which take 1 month alone, and accept the peace which muslims/world has offer them for decades and have a normal relationship with their neighbours in middle-east,let palestinian live peace in their land.
The refugee problem has been never recognised in spite of a lot of UN resolutions by Israel. Against the international law in it the refugees have been made after the file of 1948, impossible to their house return. Compensation of lost country and other property has never been under discussion. Without putting the refugee problem on the agenda peace between Israel and the palestijnen is unthinkable. Even when it would be possible the areas occupied in the living satisfy refugees with the suppression of the accupation - most of them have not settled themselves already, are it possible ignore the refugees outside the borders. It is clear that Israel fears for the consequence when they would recognise the responsibility for the refugee problem. Formally that would mean that the millions refugees could require return the right to ` ' to their old houses which meanwhile no longer exist or by Jewish Israëli's being inhabited, with which moreover the ` demographic balance ' to keep Israel Jewish definite would be disturbed. In reality the majority of the palestijnen appears HAVE NO aspirations to want to live in Israel, But wants recognition of their Rights and Compensation for Suffered loss
Step2. for Isreal to recogne of their Rights and Compensation for Suffered loss .
It takes a view steps for Israel to make peace, which will make Israel a democratic state( is not democratic state now, muslim/christian Israeli citizen doesnt have same right as jew isrealis), a state which will live peace next to their neighbours, a state which dont have to fear to be nuked, or to be boycot and hated across the world.
the Zionist propaganda and manipulation didnt make Israel a peaceful country with a normalize relationship with rest of the world.
the bottom line is the land Isreal accupied now is illigal accupation as international law and the UN-resolution says and should be return back.
step1; Israel must complay the UN-resolution, move those people which take 1 month alone, and accept the peace which muslims/world has offer them for decades and have a normal relationship with their neighbours in middle-east,let palestinian live peace in their land.
The refugee problem has been never recognised in spite of a lot of UN resolutions by Israel. Against the international law in it the refugees have been made after the file of 1948, impossible to their house return. Compensation of lost country and other property has never been under discussion. Without putting the refugee problem on the agenda peace between Israel and the palestijnen is unthinkable. Even when it would be possible the areas occupied in the living satisfy refugees with the suppression of the accupation - most of them have not settled themselves already, are it possible ignore the refugees outside the borders. It is clear that Israel fears for the consequence when they would recognise the responsibility for the refugee problem. Formally that would mean that the millions refugees could require return the right to ` ' to their old houses which meanwhile no longer exist or by Jewish Israëli's being inhabited, with which moreover the ` demographic balance ' to keep Israel Jewish definite would be disturbed. In reality the majority of the palestijnen appears HAVE NO aspirations to want to live in Israel, But wants recognition of their Rights and Compensation for Suffered loss
Step2. for Isreal to recogne of their Rights and Compensation for Suffered loss .
It takes a view steps for Israel to make peace, which will make Israel a democratic state( is not democratic state now, muslim/christian Israeli citizen doesnt have same right as jew isrealis), a state which will live peace next to their neighbours, a state which dont have to fear to be nuked, or to be boycot and hated across the world.
the Zionist propaganda and manipulation didnt make Israel a peaceful country with a normalize relationship with rest of the world.
Last edited by Mosliima on Mon Dec 04, 2006 11:55 am, edited 1 time in total.
[quote="Basra-"]Moslima
I take it then u hate jews? Thank God u dont live in USA then--otherwise i would think u would have gone crazy. They are everywhere.
[/quote]
Basra
I dont hate jews, just hate the Zionist ideology. If someone hates AlQaeda ideology would you call that person hate Muslims??
They are as well here everywhere, just like the cockroaches are everywhere why would I go crazy .Those u dislike you must be able to face them .....cockroaches too
I take it then u hate jews? Thank God u dont live in USA then--otherwise i would think u would have gone crazy. They are everywhere.
[/quote]Basra
I dont hate jews, just hate the Zionist ideology. If someone hates AlQaeda ideology would you call that person hate Muslims??
They are as well here everywhere, just like the cockroaches are everywhere why would I go crazy .Those u dislike you must be able to face them .....cockroaches too
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Steeler [Crawler2]
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Mosliima
This is the first rationale post you have ever made here that wasn't cut and paste. I don't agree with it all, but I agree with elements of it.
Let's start with moving populations. You can not compare the movement of 250,000 people under peaceful conditions to the movement of 750,000 refugees in wartime. One is moving and living in tents, if that. Not reasonable expectation here, and you know that. Furthermore, dismantling small cities would be an enormously expensive undertaking, and Israel can not afford to do that quickly. Since the four very largest settlements border Israel, a land swap certainly makes more sense.
As for the refugees, there is no doubt that compensation of some sort is due. However, the longer time goes on, the more difficult it becomes to separate the wheat from the chaff here. Who gets what.
Right of Return is a Trojn horse and the Israelis know it. While I personaly think the idea of a Jewish state is as repulsive as the idea of a Muslim state, look at it from their perspective. Here's a people who's incredible suffering isn't some ancient history, but occurred in current memory. Is it a wonder they want their own state and don't trust anyone else? Particularly Arabs who are a notoriously non-trustworthy.
This is the first rationale post you have ever made here that wasn't cut and paste. I don't agree with it all, but I agree with elements of it.
Let's start with moving populations. You can not compare the movement of 250,000 people under peaceful conditions to the movement of 750,000 refugees in wartime. One is moving and living in tents, if that. Not reasonable expectation here, and you know that. Furthermore, dismantling small cities would be an enormously expensive undertaking, and Israel can not afford to do that quickly. Since the four very largest settlements border Israel, a land swap certainly makes more sense.
As for the refugees, there is no doubt that compensation of some sort is due. However, the longer time goes on, the more difficult it becomes to separate the wheat from the chaff here. Who gets what.
Right of Return is a Trojn horse and the Israelis know it. While I personaly think the idea of a Jewish state is as repulsive as the idea of a Muslim state, look at it from their perspective. Here's a people who's incredible suffering isn't some ancient history, but occurred in current memory. Is it a wonder they want their own state and don't trust anyone else? Particularly Arabs who are a notoriously non-trustworthy.
"MAD MAC"]
and which elements do you agree of?
Movement of 750.000 refugees in wartime is worst then 250.000 settlers in peacetime. Look Israel builds 50.000 houses in 3months, Israel has enough money which they get from US for so call aid each year and its not a millions but billions, the most settlers has places to go, some of them(special extremist ideology) has their second homes with in Israel.like 100.000 settlers whom live the largesy settlers would need housing, and Isreal can build for them in 6months with in Israel, so land swap no need, as for the refugees compensation for suffered loss Israel could gave them those four largest settlement . Israel doesnt need more then a year time to do this, if this is for cause of ever lasting peace so let it take time to move those illigal settlers out.
[q]Here's a people who's incredible suffering isn't some ancient history, but occurred in current memory. Is it a wonder they want their own state and don't trust anyone else?[q]
They can have their own state, but not by the cause others suffering, have ur state in a fair and ligally land then stolen land etc. have your state with in ligally border.
you know why dont trust anyone.. once a thief always a thief.. they know they got the land by stealing, unjustice way and are doing unjustice to arabs, no wonder they dont trust them after how they treated them.But they can turn that. the prize for peace is worthed more then the prize for decades of war.
Where there is a Will, There is a Way!
and which elements do you agree of?
Movement of 750.000 refugees in wartime is worst then 250.000 settlers in peacetime. Look Israel builds 50.000 houses in 3months, Israel has enough money which they get from US for so call aid each year and its not a millions but billions, the most settlers has places to go, some of them(special extremist ideology) has their second homes with in Israel.like 100.000 settlers whom live the largesy settlers would need housing, and Isreal can build for them in 6months with in Israel, so land swap no need, as for the refugees compensation for suffered loss Israel could gave them those four largest settlement . Israel doesnt need more then a year time to do this, if this is for cause of ever lasting peace so let it take time to move those illigal settlers out.
[q]Here's a people who's incredible suffering isn't some ancient history, but occurred in current memory. Is it a wonder they want their own state and don't trust anyone else?[q]
They can have their own state, but not by the cause others suffering, have ur state in a fair and ligally land then stolen land etc. have your state with in ligally border.
you know why dont trust anyone.. once a thief always a thief.. they know they got the land by stealing, unjustice way and are doing unjustice to arabs, no wonder they dont trust them after how they treated them.But they can turn that. the prize for peace is worthed more then the prize for decades of war.
Where there is a Will, There is a Way!
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Steeler [Crawler2]
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You are being simplistic. First of all, you are ignoring the internal divisions within Israel itself. Generally there is consensus for land for peace in Israel, but not unconstrained, return to 1967 borders. The other part of this problem is, the first time the Arabs came on line and said "return to 1967 borders and we'll recognize you". A little late. Now there are decades of mistrust and anger.
On top of this, right now it is clear that until Hamas is not recognizing previous agreements with Israel. Not surprisingly, a lot of Israelis are saying "We'll make this sacrifice, give up the land at great expense, and next thing you know, Hamas will renege anyway." Clearly there are some very legitimate trust issues here. Can the Arabs be trusted over the long haul? Would you stake your fate on it?
Then of course you have the religious nuts (and the Jews have them too) who claim God gave them this land. That is an internal dispute, to be sure, and they are a minority within Israeli society, but they form a significan voting block and in the Byzntine world that is Israeli politics, can't be ignored (as stupid as they are).
The bottom line right now is that until Hamas recognizes Israel, there is not going to be any movement. PERHAPS reconition on the pre-condition that Israel return to the 67 borders or some permanent agreement might work. But flat out saying no, never, creates an impossible impasse.
On top of this, right now it is clear that until Hamas is not recognizing previous agreements with Israel. Not surprisingly, a lot of Israelis are saying "We'll make this sacrifice, give up the land at great expense, and next thing you know, Hamas will renege anyway." Clearly there are some very legitimate trust issues here. Can the Arabs be trusted over the long haul? Would you stake your fate on it?
Then of course you have the religious nuts (and the Jews have them too) who claim God gave them this land. That is an internal dispute, to be sure, and they are a minority within Israeli society, but they form a significan voting block and in the Byzntine world that is Israeli politics, can't be ignored (as stupid as they are).
The bottom line right now is that until Hamas recognizes Israel, there is not going to be any movement. PERHAPS reconition on the pre-condition that Israel return to the 67 borders or some permanent agreement might work. But flat out saying no, never, creates an impossible impasse.
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Steeler [Crawler2]
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Steeler [Crawler2]
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