Shia view of Umar ibn al-khattab amiir ul mu'mineen!

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Shia view of Umar ibn al-khattab amiir ul mu'mineen!

Post by Enemy_Of_Mad_Mullah »

Allah will destroy these FAKE muslims! Evil or Very Mad

________________________________

Historical context
While Sunnis regard Umar ibn al-Khattab in high esteem and respect his place as one of the "Four Righteously Guided Caliphs," Shi'a hold an opposing perspective of him. They do not view him as a legitimate leader of the Ummah and believe it to be factually provable that Umar and Abu Bakr conspired to usurp power from Ali. Shi'a believe that the Sunni view of Umar is an inaccurate one, created by the later Umayyad dynasty to honour the man that gave power to the first Umayyad ruler and third Sunni Caliph, Uthman. In this way, it gives legitimacy to Umar's consultation that started their own dynasty, a corrupt one in both Shi'a and Sunni view.

Shi'a believe that the Umayyad view was propagated with lethal force and heavy duress and as time went on, that view became predominant and eventually taken as truth, cemented by the works of Bukhari. However, Shi'a believe that despite the perceived white washing of Umar, bits of his true qualities can be found in all sources, including Sunni ones. They also believe that invented positive traits attributed to him do not hold a closer scrutiny.


Sources
Citations from the Qur'an are used in the following format: (Qur'an 2:124).

On occasion, Shi'as prefer to have their ideas sourced from Sunni sources. This manner of holding the opposing sides views make the Shi'as feel more convinced of their authenticity. To reflect this, Sunni sources are cited where Shi'a might do so. This practice is so widespread that a link might link to a Shi'a site quoting a Sunni source. Sunni's argue that this practice is counter-intuitive because Shi'as will use a source narrated by Umar, yet only if it is to negate his character. Any hadith that elevates his character is automatically shunned.

However, Shi'as also have their own sources and in most cases the critique towards Umar is much greater in those sources. Shi'as believe that most of the narrations critical to the Caliphs were purged during the Ummayyad dynasty. Some survived, but the most outspoken of them were eradicated. However a small minority group strove to keep alive those narrations, mainly through the descendants of the male Shi'as that survived the Battle of Karbala.

In contrast to Sunnis, Shi'a do not hold as authentic any narrations that depict Umar in a positive view, for example him being promised paradise, and hold as authentic some narrations that depict Umar in a negative view, for example some accusations regarding his sexuality. Besides this, the vast majority of narrations have a more neutral depiction of Umar, for example him questioning Muhammad's prophethood at the Treaty of Hudaybiya or scolding his daughter Hafsa. In these cases, Shi'a and Sunni have different views on the narrations. Many times Shi'as feel that Sunnis blatantly disregard narrations that even their own most respected scholars have authenticated. For example, a narration in Sahih Bukhari states explicitly that Ali and Zubair opposed Umar during the succession to Muhammad, or another narration that states that Umar was not invited to Fatima Zahra's secret funeral. According to Shia scholars Umar is also known to have said "I would much rather be a tree or a bird than be human as I would not have to face judgement, and would be free"

The Shi'a view of Umar differs from the Sunni view in mainly two areas. First, regarding his everyday character. The Sunni's claim he was wise and just while the Shi'as describe him as an ignorant usurper. Secondly, his attitudes and actions regarding the succession to Muhammad. The Sunnis argue that he acted in good faith to save the community whilst the Shi'as claim he seized the power in bad faith.
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Re: Shia view of Umar ibn al-khattab amiir ul mu'mineen!

Post by Bagamundo »

No need to divide the muslim ummah over this...We all need to unite.
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Re: Shia view of Umar ibn al-khattab amiir ul mu'mineen!

Post by Padishah »

Hujjat Al Islam Imam al Ghazali told us that if the Shia say the Kalimah, then they cannot be referred to as non-Muslims. Cursing the Prophet's Wives and Companions is something they really shouldn't do.
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Re: Shia view of Umar ibn al-khattab amiir ul mu'mineen!

Post by Salahuddiin »

Cursing asahaba and claiming they are all kuffaar except few is not only thing shi'as believe in. They also believe that Qur'aan is altered and they worship their "infallible" imams and give them status much higher than prophets and angels. Also they say that one fundamental part of religion is hypocrisy so they can cheat and lie in anything that they think benefits them in any way (taqiyah). It all finds from the books of their scholars, for example Khomeini.

What the imams of the sunni madhabs say about shi'a:

Shaafici:
"I have not seen among the heretics a people more famous for falsehood than the Raafidi* Shia." and "Narrate knowledge from everyone you meet except for the Raafidi Shia, because they invent ahaadeeth and adopt them as part of their religion." (Minhaj as-Sunnah an-Nabawiyyah)

*Raafidi means rejecter and they are the majority among shi'a population for example in Iran, Lebanon, Iraq... Among them are ithna cashari (twelvers) who make the vast majority of world's shi'as. On the other hand Zaidi shii'as who live in Yemen and some other khaliij countries don't believe in many things that shii'as usually believe and their beliefs are close to mainstream sunni. Unfortunately they are the minority of shii'as. Root for this is when some shii'as asked Zaid ibn Ali to make tabarra (to claim someone to be enemy of Allah and disassociate from them) to anyone who disagreed that Ali was supposed to be imam. Zaid refused and shi'as rejected him and this is the beginning of raafidi shii'as. Zaidis are those who stayed with him.

Abu Haniifa:
"Whoever doubts whether they are disbelievers has himself committed disbelief."

Maalik:
"Do not speak to them or narrate from them, for surely they are liars."

"Muhammad is the Messenger of Allah and those with him are harsh with the disbelievers and gentle among themselves. So that the disbelievers may become enraged with them." (48:29) He then said, "Whoever becomes enraged when the Sahâbah are mentioned is the one about whom the verse speaks." (Tafseer al-Qurtubi)
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Re: Shia view of Umar ibn al-khattab amiir ul mu'mineen!

Post by Steeler [Crawler2] »

The challenge for Shi'a and Sunni to live together, and in some cases within these communities as well, is that they don't have a 100% shared view on Shari'a. And because all of the non-securalists believe that there can be no compromise on Shari'a issues, everything becomes a life or death question. How do you structure your legal system to accomodate:

Those who believe that temporary marriage should be allowed and those who don't?

Who have differing interpretations on modern issues, such as whether Satellite TV should be allowed or not or alcohol consumption by non-Muslims should be allowed?

How to accomodate the non-Muslims and the legalization of their non-Islamic practices, such as unmarried sex or mixing?

Practical (read modern or whatever term you wish to use) Muslims say there should be laws that fit for all in society, and that individuals must be guided by their conscience. But fundamentalist would say this is secularism (and they would be right) and that there is only one law, and that no human innovation can be allowed. This view does not accomodate others, considering other viewpoints to be illegitimate.

Over the years I have had a number of conversations with Muslims. Dislike of western influence and resentment of the west in general often has Muslims rejecting secularism and democracy (not always of course) but no Muslim on this site has EVER given me adequate answers to these questions which so frequently lead to violence in the Islamic world.
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Re: Shia view of Umar ibn al-khattab amiir ul mu'mineen!

Post by Steeler [Crawler2] »

Hey Padishah, where did you go?
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Re: Shia view of Umar ibn al-khattab amiir ul mu'mineen!

Post by +chilli »

Now its the shia, ignorance...

call them kufir and wait for the day of Judgement...things will be clear

Mad-there is away, shar'ah is not an invvariable, rigid command, but a 'guide' to walk towards Allah, intepretation is open as long as its done by the right ppl...
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Re: Shia view of Umar ibn al-khattab amiir ul mu'mineen!

Post by Steeler [Crawler2] »

"shar'ah is not an invvariable, rigid command, but a 'guide' to walk towards Allah, intepretation is open as long as its done by the right ppl..."

Chilli
But who are the right people. If Suffi scholars are included, and Shi'a scholars, and Sunni scholars, you will get differing opinions - that's why Islam has different branches.
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Re: Shia view of Umar ibn al-khattab amiir ul mu'mineen!

Post by +chilli »

together they can reach a common ground, just need to keep the hot heads out, emphasising differences never got no nation no where, at the end of the day we are an umma, that can break any ideology if understood, its stronger then patriotic feelings that relate to region, race and politics...thats what the real differentiation are among these groups...
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Re: Shia view of Umar ibn al-khattab amiir ul mu'mineen!

Post by Warsame101 »

[quote="MAD MAC"]The challenge for Shi'a and Sunni to live together, and in some cases within these communities as well, is that they don't have a 100% shared view on Shari'a. And because all of the non-securalists believe that there can be no compromise on Shari'a issues, everything becomes a life or death question. How do you structure your legal system to accomodate:

Those who believe that temporary marriage should be allowed and those who don't?

Who have differing interpretations on modern issues, such as whether Satellite TV should be allowed or not or alcohol consumption by non-Muslims should be allowed?

How to accomodate the non-Muslims and the legalization of their non-Islamic practices, such as unmarried sex or mixing?[/quote]

The Raafidis (Shias) derive their legal rulings from the untraceable statements of their "infallibile" Imams' whilst the Muslims (Sunnis) already have a well-defined and structured law (Shariah) preserved by their predecessors, tracing back to the time of the Prophet (SCW).

For instance, through the verified and traceable (sanad) statements of our Prophet (SCW), we can found out whether temporary marriage is allowable or simply prohibited.

The issues about interpretations on modern issues comes under Fiqh rulings and is achieved through the use of itjihaad (human reasoning) or qiyaas (analogical reasoning) however, there are conditions to be met for those who want to perform these reasonings.

As for your question regarding non-Muslims. The non-Muslims have rights outlined in the Shariah Law. Islam secures personal freedom for non-Muslims in the Muslim state and they can do whatever they desire (e.g. premarital sex) as long they do it behind closed doors.

Same cannot be said for the Western states that bar Muslims from adhering to their way of life (i.e. banning hijaab).
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Re: Shia view of Umar ibn al-khattab amiir ul mu'mineen!

Post by Padishah »

Sorry Mad Mac. Just hopped on and off quickly.

Mad Mac, this is an area of knowledge I have not delved to deeply in to. I will have to fire off a couple of emails to either Professor Abdul Hakim Murad or Dr Jamal Badawi; two very busy men, and see their opinion. Then do some research of my own.

I think, Shias having differences in their interpretation of the Sharia, might be allowed to exercise their own Personal Law, but come under the Sunni Sharia Law, like everyone else, when it comes to Criminal Law.

But other than that, I haven't the slightest.
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Re: Shia view of Umar ibn al-khattab amiir ul mu'mineen!

Post by yourboy »

Go here for good information and evidence on how Shiism is fundamentally flawed"
http://shiism.blogspot.com/

At this website you learn:
-that Shiism was started by ibn Saba (a Jew) who was burned at the stake for claiming Ali was God
-Shiism promotes lying for the good of the religion
-Iran has deep rooted connections with Israel (remember the iran-contra affair)
-much more....

Check it out.
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Re: Shia view of Umar ibn al-khattab amiir ul mu'mineen!

Post by Steeler [Crawler2] »

"I think, Shias having differences in their interpretation of the Sharia, might be allowed to exercise their own Personal Law, but come under the Sunni Sharia Law, like everyone else, when it comes to Criminal Law."

Now what if the Shi'as told you "Sunnis might be allowed to ecercise their own personal law, but come under the Shi'a Shari'a law, like everyone else, when it comes to criminal law???

You see the problem?

As for non-Muslims, how do you deal with behavior that for them is not criminal and for you is? For example, let's say a Muslim woman has premarital sex with a non-Muslim man? He is not criminally culpable, he has done nothing criminal as a non-Muslim. But she is? Fundamental unfairness no? Take it a step further. Let's say your non-Muslim wants to marry a Muslim woman and he won't convert? Are you going to tell two consenting people they can not get married? In the modern world, the Islamic state is simply asking for big trouble. BIG TROUBLE. Any religion or ideology which divides people via jurisprudence is a non-starter.
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Re: Shia view of Umar ibn al-khattab amiir ul mu'mineen!

Post by smooth »

[quote]If it were really true that to be a Muslim you simply had to believe in the Kalima, then one could errect an entire new religion and still be a Muslim so long as your tongue recites the Kalima. This would destroy all consistency in the deen of Islaam, leaving each follower to make their own Akhaam of Islaam.

There is Ijma on the fact that a person who rejects even ONE verse of the Quran is a Kaafir (disbeliever). The Quran itself says this, declaring him a Kaafir who accepts some of the Quran and rejects other parts of it. We wonder why some ignorant Muslims claim that the Shahada is enough to be a Muslim, when EVERYONE also agrees that a person who rejects ONE verse of the Quran is a Kaafir. So a person CAN be a Kaafir even if he says the Shahada, if he rejects a verse in the Quran! Indeed, there are many things which can throw a person outside the folds of Islaam. For example, aiding the Kufaar in destroying the Muslims is considered Kufr. There are countless examples which contradict ANY claim that saying the Shahada is simply enough to be a Muslim [quote]

This goes for the Ilmo Jareer Bin. Tigray + the Harti Abgaal mules
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Re: Shia view of Umar ibn al-khattab amiir ul mu'mineen!

Post by Padishah »

Who could, in all conscience, utter and believe in the Kalimah, and promptly reject a Quranic verse which is the uncreated Word of Allah himself? Anyone who expects to continue being a Muslim and violate the first part of the Kalimah is disturbed.

Its simple deduction people, unless you want everything spelt out.

As of yet, I haven't met a Shia who doesn't believe the Qur'an is the Word of Allah, Right from Al Baqarah to An Nas, and I hardly think it fair to attribute their religious beliefs to them.


And would it fair to assume your Habr Gedir, smooth?
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