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     | Sunday, January 21, 2001 - 07:32 pm Salamu aleykum I want to say Gold advice insha Allah if you ever going to joke in your life don't ever joke about the deen...and your religon for this could take you out of islam...and you don't know...this what scholars of islam said... don't joke about Allah, and his messengers and companion Angles etc.... who ever does that and he knows may Allah give him what he deserve... and don't sit with who ever does that...until they repent.. and Allah knows best
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| | Monday, January 22, 2001 - 02:34 am thank you brother
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| | Monday, January 22, 2001 - 04:52 am Now we can't joke!!!! Jesus Christ, the list of don'ts and can'ts is getting longer by the day. Don't you think God has a sense of humor???? Can anyone cite a specific Hadith or Qur'anic verse that says I can't joke about Allah? Where's the proof? No drinking, no screwing around, no music, no jokes, no interest rates, no dancing, no night life, no sexy clothing, no eating pork, no smoking, no oral or anal sex, no, no, no. Is Islam suppose to be the most dour religion on earth?? Can we lighten' up just a little bit. Which esteemed "scholars" came up with this one, the Taliban?
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| | Monday, January 22, 2001 - 06:27 am MM. You crack me up! I don't know who you are but I get the feeling your pulling our leg. Its obvious that you diss agree with a lot of Islamic views. I'm just surprised that you ask for proofs from the Quran and Ahadith. Does it matter to you? This is an honest question. Because I'm sure you've come across verses and Ahadith prohibiting "drinking", "screwing around" "interest" and "eating pork". Has your knowledge of these verses changed your opinion? Why ask for the proof if it does not matter? You are a rare species Mad Mac. Makes interesting reading non the less. Here are the verse you requested. I hope they help you bro. 6:07 "And forsake those who take their religion for a pastime and a jest, and whom the life of the world beguileth. Remind (mankind) hereby lest a soul be destroyed by what it earneth. It hath beside Allah no protecting ally nor intercessor, and though it offer every compensation it will not be accepted from it. Those are they who perish by their own deserts. For them is drink of boiling water and a painful doom, because they disbelieved" 9:65-66 And if you should question them, they would certainly say: We were only idly discoursing and sporting. Say: Was it at Allah and His communications and His Messenger that you mocked? "Do not make excuses; you have denied indeed after you had believed; if We pardon a party of you, We will chastise (another) party because they are guilty." 45 (34-35) "And it shall be said: Today We forsake you as you neglected the meeting of this day of yours and your abode is the fire, and there are not for you any helpers:" "That is because you took the communications of Allah for a jest and the life of this world deceived you. So on that day they shall not be brought forth from it, nor shall they be granted goodwill" MM Knowing you (based on previous discussions) you probably want a more clear verse, right? I saved the 'best' for last! "...Do not treat Allah's Signs as a jest, but solemnly rehearse Allah's favors on you, and the fact that He sent down to you the Book and Wisdom, for your instruction. And fear Allah, and know that Allah is well acquainted with all things." (2.231) Why do you want to joke about Allah? Or about his religion? Is there anything sacred to you?. (dum question). Bro, are you Muslim? I'm not saying your not, just wanted to know! incase your, wondering I'm a Muslim
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| | Monday, January 22, 2001 - 07:23 am Salamu aleykum.... idea you welcome... I'm wondering Mad Mac.... I think you made mistake, you in wrong board... islam is beatifull religon, Allah by his mercy prohibted things and told you to stay from it for your own good, the wine is haram, but there so many other drinks which are halal... but idoits they don't want except wine,... look how many problems it bring to the society... they say the effect all drugs compare to wine, the wine is more...harmfull than all drugs.. Zena, Allah prohibted zena and allowed for you marriage...allowed you everything in you marriage relation... I ask you would you like you mom or sister to sleep with some one who is not their husband... --------------------------------------- I have question for you , I assume you are the people who wants everything to be free!!, I guess you want to do following in the future: I want to know what do yu think about gay...?? I guess you want them to do what they want, also maybe you do what they do? people like you soon they going to call relationship with childeren... what wrong having or mating with my little child... give us our freedom!!, that whats you calling for...soon yeah, I mean why don't you have relation with your own children,....what wrong with it? let say how about your mom, and sister?etc... and soon they going to say we want to have relationship and mate with animal... we want society free do what ever you want sleep with who you want ....chill out... then they going to say we want to take our cloth off, thats style,...thats what ladies doing every other century the taking more cloth off... thats what you calling and your agenda...
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| | Monday, January 22, 2001 - 08:46 pm Well, I would sat that if a grown son and mother want to hve sex that's up to them. It's thoroughly disgusting, but hey, there are plenty of things I find disgusting that I don't think should be outlawed. Same with Gay activity. I think it's gross and I sure ain't playing, but hey, if two men want to do whatever it is they want to do, thats' their business - it ain't mine. If Allah so desires, he can judge it in his own good time. I have neither the right nor the proclivity to do so. Sex with underage children is different. They can not offer educated consent. However, look at Islam. It says that sex (within marriage) for a girl once she's menstruating is OK. That means in some cases girls 12 years old are getting married off. That's obcene, know what I mean? There are some things about Islam, esspecially when taken in historical context, that I find truly impressive. And I too am convinced Mohammed had divine help in generating it. But while I agree it was divinely influenced I don't believe it is divine. Nothing on Earth is perfect. JB Well, it would seem you have adequate proof. Can't much argue that.
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| | Tuesday, January 23, 2001 - 09:43 am MM, May be you are ''politically correct'' but you are morally definelty WRONG. BWT what is your point here. Putting islam down as much as you could, though, no succes with the slightst!!! I always thought you were bettere than that???? And now you are down to the point of comparing natural relationship with degrading way of life( I seek refugee from Allah ( SWT)) Under Islamic law a young girl at the age of puperty can get married with her parents consent howver, there are a major change about the women's mental growth. In early days, the girls of the age of say 12 or 13 were much mature even 20 years ago than they are today. today, you find a woman at 20 who is very immuture and not ready getting married. also, naturally, women grew pyhsically and mentally faster than men. Therefore, it is not surprising if a younger girl( not nowadays of course) choose to marry an older man as long it is her consent. Can you compare this with the most unatural things that you mentioned. I wonder. Also, if you think that we should not care what other poepl's do and you related this to Islam and Allah. Let me say something. In Islam, poeple should not interfer and go around other poeple's houses and talk and curse what they do, and there are Quranic injuctions and hadith's on that ( I cannot quate now as I am at work) However, Islam is against and condemns any activities and arguments that promotes any life style that are immoral. It promotes social corruption. And after all, it is againsgt the natural law that islam stands for. And lastly, I think, you should realise that this is islamic forums and most of the topics are addressed to the Muslims by way of remindings and teachengs. It seems to me you have distorted what the topic was about. If you think the islamic beleafs are dos' and do's I would recommd that you should go and visit the Islamic webpages that are dasinged to introduce Islam to non-muslims. Sorry, If i have said something that upsets you but could not help but to say it.
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| | Tuesday, January 23, 2001 - 11:15 am MM: You are nothing but a man of desires bro! Honestly, Even though i disagree with your logic I am willing to go along with it provided you are consistent in your application of logic. You claim that a girl who has reached puberty is not capable of offering "educated consent". Fair enough you've established a rule or a standard. Are you also saying by extension that she needs to offer an "educated consent" on other choices?? Lets see surgery? dental work? which school she attends? Even you can see that your reason for opposing this issue based on educated consent does not hold water! As far as you know this same "child" cannot offer educated consent on anything. Let them stay at home and rot because they don't have a PH.D. degree or high school LOL. I am only playing by your laws here and I don't necessarily agree with what I've said. I also think that there are a lot of "boys and girl" who are more intelligent than both you and me. To paint every person with one brush is ignorant to say the least. You've declared these "kids" under age based on what criterion?? science or desire? If nature has decided that a 12 your old boy or girl is old enough to have a child who on earth are you to dispute that? You should build your own universe and make your own laws, seriously. I warn you to try and be consistent while you create your 'universe' or you'll create nothing but confusion. lol You have two weaknesses in your reasoning. 1) inability to prove its wrong (based on logical grounds)2) selecting an appropriate age for the permissibility of marriage/"sex" (based on logical grounds). If I was to introduce the purpose of creation into the equation (which I'm sure we disagree on) your argument would make even less sense. You try desperately to make Islam appear as the only religion that accepts such marriages. I suggest you look at your masters (the west or America). In some states the legal age for marriage between to people is as low as 11 and 12 years of age (with the consent of parents of course). So leave aside religious Law for a moment, even secular law permits it. Other religions and non Islamic nations accept and practice this. Yet you consider Incest as ok? Base on what? Science? Nature? You are a man without justice, logic and consistency, bro. Perhaps Incest is the only type or relationship considered as bad by universal consent. It would seem that you are lenient in accepting all sorts of matters except when Islam has already legalized it. At least you are consistent with your disagreement with Islam. Keep it Up MAD MAC!!!
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| | Tuesday, January 23, 2001 - 11:21 am JB What else can I say? where can I find a brother like you? lol He is consistency with one thing to disagree Islam.
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| | Tuesday, January 23, 2001 - 12:25 pm JB, You asked if nature has decided that a 12 your old boy or girl is old enough to have a child who on earth are you to dispute that? Does NATURE decide anything or is it Allah who is the ONE decides life and it's development. It's growth or it's maturity? Some scholars say the age of maturity is 15 years for boys and the time of menstruation. Girls mature earlier than boys. However, they say parents should test their children and those who are under their guardianship and find out if they have intellect and capacity to judge and act for themselves and if they have the ablity to perform household duties. They base their opinion of the age of maturity on the verse Surah Nisah verse 6. "Test the orphans till they attain the age of wedlock....." Some scholars say the age of maturity for girls is the time they reached menstruation and for boys their time, but the nature and development of the family have deep roots in the physiological conditions of human mating, reproduction and education. The exceptional prolongation of infancy as a state of helplessness and immaturity is one of the most instinctive features of mankind generally. Through it the role of the parents as well as of other relatives in nourishing, protecting and educating offspring is of the utmost importance for the individual and for society. However fixed the inherited traits and gifts of the individual may be, the child's necessary social equipment is doubtless acquired only through a circumstantial and long continued process of artificial training and adaptation. The family has been the chief bearer and medium of this process, which also vitalises the relations between the parents and in the wider sense between all the members of a blood relationship, for they are connected from generation to generation by the awareness of this social tradition. A Nikah of a girl or lady does not solemnise unless it takes place through the guardian and if someone does not have a guardian the ruler of the Muslims is his guardian, even if the girl or the lady is 30 years old. Since the preservation and protection of the family set up is of paramount importance to Islam, it is but natural that each marriage take place through the consent of the parents who are the foremost guardians. It is obvious that a marriage solemnised through the consent of the parents shields and shelters the newly formed family. For reasons stated earlier, it is essential that the newly formed family be part of another larger family. However, as is evident from the hadith also, there can always be an exception to this general principle. If a man and a woman feel that the rejection on the part of the parents has no sound reasoning behind it or that the parents, owing to some reason, are not appreciating the grounds of this union, they have all the right to take this matter to the courts of justice. It is now up to the court to analyse and evaluate the whole affair. If it is satisfied with the stance of the man and woman, it can give a green signal to them. In this case, as is apparent from the hadith, the state shall be considered the guardian of the couple. On the other hand, if the court is of the view that the stand of the parents is valid, it can stop the concerned parties from engaging in wedlock. Similarly, if a case is brought before the judicial forumss in which the marriage has taken place without the consent of the parents, it is up to the court to decide the fate of such a liaison. If it is not satisfied with the grounds of this union, it can order for their separation and if it is satisfied, it can endorse the decision taken by the couple. This is the law as far as this issue is concerned. However, it is evident that laws mostly cater for extreme situations as their nature is preventive not reformatory. In other words, they prevent the spreading of anarchy and disorder in a society but have no role in positively building a society on a certain ideology. It is the utmost goal of Islam to build a society in which traditions are so deeply rooted that various affairs are settled and resolved within the social structure without taking them to the courts. Family affairs, if taken to the courts, become the talk of the town and severely damage the standing and reputation of the parties involved. Consequently, it is in the interest of the parties involved to settle their differences mutually by giving due importance to the ultimate goal of protecting the institution of family. The society which, we believe, Islam wants to build is one in which the relationship between parents and children is based on such norms and values as protect the family set up. In such a society, if an individual has to select a life partner for himself or herself, he or she must make the utmost effort to convince the parents. In differences of opinion it seems proper that the individual accommodate the opinion of the parents as far as possible, and only in extraordinary circumstances should he persist in his decision. An individual no doubt has total freedom in decision making in this regard but he should give top priority to the protection of the institution of family. This freedom is so absolute that Islam disapproves of parents who forcibly marry their sons and daughters and makes it clear that it is the concerned man and woman who have the final say in this regard: A girl once came to ‘A’isha and said ‘My father has married me to his nephew to alleviate his poverty through me. I dislike him.’ ‘A’isha replied ‘Wait here until the Prophet comes.’ The Prophet arrived shortly and she informed him of the matter. At this, the Prophet sent for her father. When he arrived the Prophet gave the girl the choice to do whatever she liked. She said: ‘I accept my father's decision. I only wanted to know whether a girl has authority in this regard or not’. (Nisaii, Kitab-un-nikaah) If in a society envisaged by Islam it is important that an individual give due regard to the opinion of the parents in marriage, it is even more important that the parents be extra cautious in this matter since they hold moral authority over their children. Misuse and abuse of such authority can produce grave consequences. Parents must give deep consideration to the inclinations and tendencies of their children in deciding their future in an affair as delicate as marriage. They should understand that once their children become mentally mature they must not impose their ideas on them. When an individual develops into a grown up person he deserves freedom of expression and freedom of action within certain limits. This actually develops and strengthens his personality. The vivacity of youth and the vigour of adolescence demand a certain amount of independence, which if curtailed, only turns a dull child into a dunce and an intelligent one into a ruffian. Adult children must be handled very tactfully. They must be moulded and convinced, encouraged and exhorted. Parents must realise that an adult child learns a lot through experience and exposure. The blunders he will commit today make him wise tomorrow. Parents who forgive and forgo win respect and regard and those who make it a point to punish the children on every mistake committed make no positive impression in their minds. Important decisions must always be discussed with children to breed confidence and conviction in them. A decision as crucial as marriage is no exception. If parents have a different view from their son’s or daughter’s, they must handle the situation very carefully. They must calmly assess the situation, and must also make a true evaluation of the grounds of such a proposition. They must also estimate how far they can insist before the matter enters the zone of no return. It is advisable that only in extreme circumstances should they deprive the couple of their guardianship. They must also keep in consideration that if they intend to back out from this position, the concerned man and woman have all the right to present their case before the court to finally decide the matter. This of course would either unite the two under the guardianship of the state or endorse the view of the parents, in which case the two must submit to the verdict of the court. Another point generally held as a basis for holding the opinion that Islam allows marriage of a girl as young as 12 is a particular interpretation of Al-Nisaa 4: 3 – 6. I have also commented on this interpretation of the referred verses and have tried to clarify their correct meaning of these verses in one of my previous responses[2]. Thus, it should remain clear that the matter of ‘compelling marriage on minors’ is not a part of the Islamic Shari`ah. However, it should remain clear that the Islamic Shari`ah does not disallow a father or a guardian of a minor boy or a girl to marry[3] the child that is in his custody. Nevertheless, the child in question shall have the option of upholding or rejecting this decision of the father (or the guardian), at the time of attaining the age of majority. This option of the child, at the time of attaining the age of majority, is termed as ‘Khiyaar al-Buloogh’ (literally meaning: “exercising choice at the time of attaining majority”). Although, it may be of some interest to note that the Muslim jurists are, generally, of the opinion that a child does not have this option of upholding or rejecting a marriage, if such marriage has been carried-out by their real fathers. However, this opinion of the jurists is not supported by any clear directive of the Islamic Shari`ah.
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| | Tuesday, January 23, 2001 - 05:13 pm Bro/sister Strange. I think you misunderstood me akhi. I said a lot of things i did not agree with. MAD MAC can not create his own universe or Laws. I was being very sarcastic and using Logic. I also stated that I don't agree with his mode of thinking. I pray that Allah forgives me if I was wrong. Akhi a lot of people on this page don't care about hadith and quran. Mad Mac is one of these guys.
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| | Tuesday, January 23, 2001 - 07:16 pm Asalaamu alaikum, JB, I'm not sure if you know this or not but MadMac is not a Muslim (or atleast he says so). He is an America Soldier that served in Somalia and a dozen other Muslim countries that has mixture of admiration and detestation for Islam ( I know these are not synonyms but from his post and discussions, that is how he comes a cross). Just thought I would let you.
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| | Wednesday, January 24, 2001 - 12:42 am Arawello That's the beauty of free speech - you are free to say things that might upset me. And nothing you said upsets me. I guess what I'm saying is that if you find something repugnant or morally wrong, you are well within your rights to say so. But voicing disapproval is not the sam thing s outlawing something or taking physical action. I can think something is morally wrong without trying to establish a law against it. Understand what I am saying here? I think that lying to a woman to get her in bed is morally wrong - but that doesn't mean there should be a law against it. It's up to the woman to make sure she's not getting suckered into bed. I don't know if gey sex is morally wrong, but I do think it's repugnant. But that doesn't mean I think there should be a law against it. Some things should be left up to Allah to decide. JB Dental work and surgery are necessary medical procedures. Having some 40 year old man doing a twelve year old is not. Come on now. 18 is not the generally accepted standard for legal const - sometimes 16. But 12??? This is even more perverse when the family in question stands to make economic gain out of the daughters marriage. That's how you end up with young girls being essentially forced (often not understanding the implpications) to have sex with a man 30 years her senior all under the guise of legal marriage. It's sick when some German guy does it to a kid for money in Thailand and it's sick when some ld Somali coot does it with some young Nomadic girl in Mudug. As for nature making determinants, well, nature endowed me with both the ability and desire to kill, but in civilized societies we generated rules against killing. Well, we also generated rules against fucking 12 year olds because it's exploitative and everyone knows it. Now I did not say Incest is OK. I said it's disgusting. What I said was it should not be illegal, providing we are talking two ADULTS here. Same for homosexuality. Disgusting - yep. But that doesn't mean it should be illegal. The most important of rights is the right to be left alone. And if two grown men want to do each other that's up to them - it ain't no one elses busniness. Also, I care about Hadith and the Qur'an. But caring isn't the same thing as subscribing. Strange I think your arguments are very sound concerning marriage. Makes eminent sense to me. But the last part, about fathers marrying minor children, I think is fraught with abuse. TLG You are right but the only Muslim countries I have served in are Somalia, Saudi Arabia (hated it) Kuwait and Iraq - and the latter two I didn't meet anyone, I was almost solely in the Desert with a brief stop-over in Kuwait city.
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| | Wednesday, January 24, 2001 - 08:07 am "The imitation - individually and socially - of the Western mode of life by Muslims is undoubtedly the greatest danger for the existence, or rather: the revival of Islamic civilization. The origin of this cultural malady, dates several decades back and is connected with despair of Muslims who saw the material power and progress of the West and contrasted it with the deplorable state of their own society, out of Muslim ignorance of the true teachings of Islam. The Muslims feel that they can not cope with the rest of the world unless they adopt the social and economic rules of the West. Many Muslims come to the very superficial conclusion that the Islamic system of Society and economics is not agreeable with the requirement of progress, and should, therefore, be modified on western lines. It is futile to argue, as many of the Muslim "intelligentsia" do, that it is of no spiritual consequence whatsoever whether we live in this or that way, whether we are conservative in ones customs or not. Islam concedes to man or woman a very wide range of possibilities so long as he or she does not act in contradiction to religious commands. For example imitating the Western social structure as the free intermingling of the sexes and dressing(both men and women). If a Muslim imitates the manners and the mode of life of Europe, he or she betrays his or her preference for European civilization, whatever else his or her avowed pretensions be. It is practically impossible to imitate a foreign civilization in its intellectual and aesthetic design without appreciating its spirit. And it is equally impossible to appreciate the spirit of a civilization which is opposed to a religious outlook on life, and yet remain a good Muslim. The tendency to imitate a foreign civilization is the outcome of a feeling of inferiority. This and nothing else, is the matter with the Muslims who imitate Western civilization. They contrast its power and technical skill and brilliant surface with the sad misery of the world of Islam: and they begin to believe that in our time there is no way but the Western way. To blame Islam for our own shortcomings is the fashion of the day. At best, our so-called intellectuals adopt an apologetic attitude and try to convince themselves and others that Islam is compatible with Western civilization. In order to achieve the regeneration of Islam, the Muslim must, before adopting any measures of reform, free themselves entirely from the spirit of apology for their religion. A Muslim must live with his head lifted up. He must realize that he is distinct and different from the rest of the world, and he must learn to be proud. This being different. He should endeavor to preserve this difference as a precious quality, and pronounce it boldly to the world - instead of apologizing for it and trying to merge into other cultural circles. This does not mean that Muslims should seclude themselves from the voices coming from without. One may always receive new, positive influences from a foreign civilization without necessarily destroying his own. The world of Islam, with its growing tendency to imitate Europe and to assimilate Western ideas and ideals, is gradually cutting away the bonds which link it with its past, and is loosing therefore not only its cultural but also its spiritual ground. It resembles a tree that was strong as long as it was deeply rooted in the soil. But the mountain torrent of Western civilization has washed those roots bare: and the tree slowly decays for want of nourishment. Its leaves fall, its branches wither away. At the end the trunk itself stands in danger of collapsing. Western civilization, then cannot be the right means ofreviving the Islamic world from the mental and social stupor caused by the degeneration of practical religion into a mere custom without life and moral urge in it. Where else then, Muslims look for the spiritual and intellectual impetus so badly needed in these days? The answer is as simple as the question; indeed, it is already contained in the question. Islam as, has been pointed out many times before, is not only a "belief of heart" but also a very clearly defined programme of individual and social life. It can be destroyed by being assimilated to a foreign culture which has essentially different moral foundations. Equally, it can be regenerated the moment it is brought back to its own reality and given the value of a factor determining and shaping our personal and social existence in all its aspects. Under the impact of new ideas and conflicting cultural currents, so characteristic of the period in which we are living. Islam can no longer afford to remain an empty form. Its magic sleep of centuries is broken; it has to rise or to die. The problem facing the Muslims today is the problem of the traveler who has come to crossroads. He can remain standing where he is; but that would mean death of starvation. He can choose the road bearing the sign "Towards Western Civilization"; but then he would have to say good-bye to his past for ever. Or he can choose the other road, the one over which is written: "Towards the Reality of Islam." It is this road alone which can appeal to those who believe in their past and in the possibility of its transformation into a living future"
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| | Wednesday, January 24, 2001 - 08:48 am MM, I thought we were talking about Islam and the moralty that established by Islam. bro JB gave you a very good responde on that. Now you turned to Nomadic life style and those ignorant about Islam. Can we have something very clea??? There are difference between Islam and the way the majority of Muslims practice it nowadays. To make something very clear it is void any marriege that takes place without the girl's consent regardlees her age. Moreover, what JB expalined was that how Islam is compatale with the nature. What that has to dod with some poeple who are morrally corrupted?? see you took as an example, parents who want make economis benefit over her doughters. Do you think Islam approves that??/ About the example that you think it is morally wrong to a lie a lady to gain advantage over her. So, should not be outlawted. I think, it does not make sense here. because we were not taliking about whether or not a person is a guilty of something with the intention to do it. But whether or not something should be outlated because it is bad for the whole society. Now, as I said before, Islam does not allow the poeple to look around ppl's houses but condemns and illegalises any act that is considered rebugnant and distraction for thsociety ( I am not sure how you differentiate rebugnant and immoral in this case, may be is one of your styles to carry on your argumants) Finally, You have to cknowledge and act upon that we are different from you. If you do not find anything immoral, I amafraid we do and so many ppl around tha world who may or may not be muslims. You yourself declared that and I think that is where we should stop. Arawello
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| | Wednesday, January 24, 2001 - 09:03 am interesting. I was talking to a teacher of mine the other day, and he was talking about a fellow student, whom he admired for belong to the religion of jane, he said he thought it was wonderful that he kept such spirtual depth in the face of western decadance and praised jane as a progressive uplifting postive faith. When people, on the whole i think, look at me, and wish to give a postive analysis they do so in spite of Islam, ie: the imagine that what makes me good, is less adherence to Islam rather than more, deep down i am a good person they think, yet i have the cultural baggage of Islam, i have decency, yet Islam is intolerant, but even in this cruel oppressive religion, the light of humanity shines thus the reasons for my good actions.Do you all find this also?, that everything good that you do is attributed to other than Islam? and everything bad you do or even don't do is attributed to Islam? In regards to relations with the West, I think strange makes a valid point, there is more than one dimension to this issue i think problems also arise when muslims appear to denounce the west, rather then love the west openly. If you asked most muslims today what they think of America they will say, ohh i hate it, etc etc, but you give them a chance to move there and they are off.. secretly they love it. I wonder if admitting the west has some nice qualities means the admiration of its sprirtual bankruptcy. I think it depends on the situation and the motivation. Again strange seems right I aslo agree it is hard to intepret things from any understanding other than the postion of social evolutionism in the west, and muslims struggle with this issue, but really so does the west,they don't really know whta they are doing either, Engles argued that man made the state, and then the state took over man, i tried asking them if they think in the future they will fly and you would be suprised at some of their answer they are quite optimistic about the penetration of things they will never penetrate. Needless to say my traditional ideas would be the scourge of modernization theorists concerned with the acceptance of universal truths which emergered in the depths of the industrial reveloution reformation in Europe, of rational acheivement orientated humans , a move from the scared to the secularin society and the subsequent condemnation of anything less as backward. I mean for a civilisation which is overly concerned with the barren nature of the arabian pensula and the amount of water and streams in the Quran, they are curiously less self critical, indeed while a very sign of post modernism is in fact critical society, yet what characterises it most is its depoliticied, uneducated majority who don't trust anything, its not a critical society, it is a jealous envious, hypocritical society That said, areas in which the western powers adminstrate, have provided food and shelter for muslims when muslims were either unwilling or incapable. The west exists as the kuffar has existed, the problem is that there will be a constant battle, for each conciousness in hegelian mannor will seek the death of each other, one will do it openly, the other won't. Anything good came from Allah (Swt), anything bad came from me, discuss.
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| | Wednesday, January 24, 2001 - 10:50 am TLG: Jazak Allah Khair. I did not know that he was an infidel! and a non somali. MM. It is obvious you like to sensationalize this matter. I'm not sure weather it is due to the weakness in your argument or it’s a side effect for just being American. Just so that we are on the same page let me state what Islam permits. You seem to have a confusion in your mind or you suffer a from "twist peoples word" syndrome. With regards to age, Islam permits Marriage between two persons (male or female) who have reached puberty with the consent of their parents. There are many possible combinations for the age difference. For some reason you seem to dwell on a particular scenario of a 12 year old girl being FORCED to marry a 40 year old man because her folks need the money. Why would you talk about this scenario, which is UN-ISLAMIC. Why bring up a un-Islam circumstance to prove a point about Islam? Are we discussing prostitutes in Thailand and nomads in Mudug or Islam? This discussion form is not like the Tabloids you find in the states. Level with me MAD MAC. OK where were we: You've added a clause to clarify your general Rule. Educational consent is not needed if a matter is deemed to be necessary. You and I both know that a vast majority of medical procedures done are not really necessary. You should know the meaning of necessary better than me; Let me refresh your mind. 1)COMPULSORY 2) a : of an inevitable nature : INESCAPABLE 3) : absolutely needed : So you see if the matter is not life threatening I suggest we imprison the parent and doctors and nurses involved. You see the "child's" right has been violated (no educated consent was given) because either these doctors wanted to make a quick buck or these parents have a sick fetish! Just think of all those little 'children' who are wearing braces on their teeth or Had to get an X-ray or inoculation or minor surgery or even non life threatening major surgery. Let us build super size jails. What say you MM? And place all of these child abuser therein. Also MM the person (parents) who decide that a child should have a surgery are capable of looking out for the best interst "child". I know you wish you could dictate to planet earth your opinion but thats not how things work. Two points you need to keep in mind 1) Permissibility does not mean must or norm. 2) Divorce is permissible in Islam. A marriage can be cancelled. In Islam we do not regret our decissions but we learn and grow from it. If we are patiant in our circumstance Allah will reward us and if we are grateful for our circumstance Allah will reward us as well. Also you say that nature gave you the ability and desire to kill? I guess this is why you joined the army. I don’t understand the connection your trying to make. I'm talking about the Physical ability to procreate. We are talking about determining the proper age for the permissibility of marriage. Are you suggesting that at puberty God gave you (mad Mac) the ability to Kill and a desire for it?? Was this triggered by puberty, MM? I think you had the ability long before your voice started to crack. As for your desire to kill, I suggest you keep it in check until the Bush government decides to invade another country. Bro, stay focused to the topic at hand. I used Nature only as an example to show you that all (most) creatures start to reproduce at the onset of puberty. Hey MM, I was curious, what urges did you get when your pre molar and molar teeth began to grow? I desire to disagree with Islam? If only you tried to be more rational and less radical you may come to the realization that your mistaken. All marriages are not usually between 12 and 40 year olds. Some people reach maturity before others and are more intelligent and rational than you or me. The age of discretion, for the most part is fourteen year in males and the twelve-year in women. You can not simplify very Issue into one sentence answers. I not sure what rules you generated about marriage. I do know (I just looked them up) that the minimum legal age for marriage (with the consent of the parents) is Kansas- Male-14 Female-12 Alabama 14 California- no age limit!! Mississippi- no age limit!! New Hampshire- Male- 14 Female- 13 All (or most) of the states that have a limit set at 16 or 15 years also state "Younger parties may marry with parental consent". or "Younger parties may marry with parental and (or) judicial consent" These are the Laws of the so-called 'Civilized'. It’s a pity you consider marriage as nothing more than sex. I figure you’re not married. The sad reality of the situation is that a lot of ‘children’ 12yr of age and even less are sleeping around and having babies! I suggest you focus your attention on the American Laws (work to get them changed) and help to stop out of wedlock pregnancy in the united states. The people of Mudug are Happy with Islam
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| | Wednesday, January 24, 2001 - 11:14 am It's late and there's more here than I can answer in a short blurb. Good conversation though. As The Terminator said "I'll be back."
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| | Wednesday, January 24, 2001 - 06:51 pm MM The following hadith illustrates freedom of choice and the legality of divorce. Marriage should not be viewed as a trap. By the same token it should not be entered into without due consideration. Al-Qurtubi reported the Prophet(SAW) as saying, "Do not give your daughters to the ugly or nasty looking. For they desire of men what men desire of women." The wife of Thabit ibn Qays said to the messenger of Allah, "My face and his face will never look at one another" He asked her, "Why?" She said, "I looked at him coming in the company of other of his friends and he was the shortest and the ugliest." The messenger asked her, "Will you return to him the dower he has given you?" She replied, "Even if he asks more, I shall give it to him." The Prophet(SAW) told the husband, "Take what you have given her and release her." He did.
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| | Thursday, January 25, 2001 - 03:01 pm salamu aleykum all... this is really amazing, I have posted about joking about religon then another aurgement was opened... I mean this board is really strange... You Say A... some one comes and says no it's B... another one jumps I thought it was Z... and so on... from topic..another topic to another topic.. some of the posts in this room reached hundred.......some of them 150....I have never seen in another islamic room that much... I mean....it reminds me when sometimes some somali youth wants to play basketball they argue for so long...or if they is foul they say this is foul no it's not foul... its I used to say its like they making a country... congratulations to all the people here... ------------ by the way I hope no one comes arguing about this...
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| | Thursday, January 25, 2001 - 03:53 pm Wa Alaykum Asalam. Osman!! WHAT do you mean? I disagree with you bro. Go Back To Mudug. This page is not strange akhi. Have you lost your mind?.... Akhi, Im joking. You are correct. There are people who are kaafir on this page and there are people who deny the authentic hadith here. We also have ignorant people here as well as some who think they are scholars or even better. I myself am guilty as accused. I don't know if its better not to respond at all or to just sit there and watch some one Insult the Allah, the Rasool (PBUH) and the Deen. I dont know. I am new to this page just as you are. Let me warn you that there are some people here with who you should avoid discussions with. Galool.....does not like religon Mad mac.....not muslim Anon.......disagrees with hadith Pragmatic girl.....same as galool I think its good to respond to them once but its a waste of time to write back and forth to them. I wound to be surprised if they all were the same person. That is possible on the internet. I had to learn the hard way about these peoples affiliations. Because at first I thought that they were pro Islam. May be I should not have put Anon in this category. He is in a class of his own!! I'm not joking. I just hope he does not cut and paste my words. There are a Lot of Good bro/sisters here. Where is FG. I have not seen him around. I liked reading his post. I hope this does not start a heated debate.LOL
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| | Thursday, January 25, 2001 - 04:27 pm JB what would you classify me as?
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| | Thursday, January 25, 2001 - 04:57 pm "I don't know if its better not to respond at all or to just sit there and watch some one Insult the Allah, the Rasool (PBUH) and the Deen. I dont know." i agree there are those (including JB) who insult the prophet of Allah (ibrahim) and say ibrahim *misled* his people and *sinned*. ;-) "Galool.....does not like religon Mad mac.....not muslim Anon.......disagrees with hadith Pragmatic girl.....same as galool. I think its good to respond to them once but its a waste of time to write back and forth to them. I wound to be surprised if they all were the same person. That is possible on the internet. I had to learn the hard way about these peoples affiliations. Because at first I thought that they were pro Islam. May be I should not have put Anon in this category. He is in a class of his own!! I'm not joking." yes, you are not joking, but it is funny to me, though. ;-) for sure, you will learn the hard way more----if you continue to insult the prophet of Allah and say he *misled* his people. you (JB) believe and claimed: ""The fact that Ibrahim (AS) told a few people before the incident does not mean that he(AS) was not misleading in his speech." i told you that i believe that ibrahim (as all the prophets of Allah) did not preach islam in a *misleading* way. i also told you that prophets of Allah do not *deceit*, *mislead* and *lie* while preaching ISLAM. i said prophets of Allah do not *disobey* nor do they go *astray*; and certainly prophet of Allah do not *lie* nor *deceit* neither *mislead* the prophet they are told to guide to the *truth* in other word, there is no such thing as 'the end justifying the means' kind of preaching in ISLAM. ;-) http://somalinet.com/forums_archives/4669/13955.html "I just hope he does not cut and paste my words." lol---hope. ;-)
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| | Thursday, January 25, 2001 - 05:16 pm Anon. Brother Anon, Can you keep this impersonal?. I appreciate if you can do that. Keep your cool and don't write when you are angry. I appreciate if you also keep the lols out form your response to me and show some seriousness. JB. Brother, I think you should refrain from Anon. The wisdom isn't to continue this argument. I have seen Anon defend Hadiths before and nothing else. I know the issue of the hadith of Bukhari but thought it would be wise to leave it alone. Let us not argue over this again. Anon follows the ahadith when he prays day in day out. We have to reserve our judgement over this Matter. May Allah show him and us what is good for us. May Allah enable us to understand his religion correctly.
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| | Thursday, January 25, 2001 - 06:18 pm "Brother Anon, Can you keep this impersonal? I appreciate if you can do that. Keep your cool and don't write when you are angry. I appreciate if you also keep the lols out form your response to me and show some seriousness." i can not show some seriousness, because i don't take things here *serious* nor *personal*. i just take anything that is thrown at me; however, i dish it out things too-----without insults or without loosing my coolness, so sorry, i can't help but to laugh at things that is thrown at me by people-----whoever they may be. ;-) "I have seen Anon defend Hadiths before and nothing else." yes, you have seen me point out things about the Quran and hadeeth. ;-) "Anon follows the ahadith when he prays day in day out." not only when i pray. ;-) "May Allah show him and us what is good for us." aamiin. "May Allah enable us to understand his religion correctly." aamiin.
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| | Tuesday, February 06, 2001 - 05:05 am J.B. I'm not sure the people of Mudug are happy at all. But aside from that, your points are well taken. I guess that mean if I convert I can look forward to a hot young bride. Cool. Course I'm probably not going to convert, so there goes that.
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| | Tuesday, February 06, 2001 - 06:35 am MAD MAC You are alive! for a while I thought you went MIA! LOL. On a more serious note, I think the suicide rate in mudug is much lower than in America or Europe. The death rate is the same everywhere else (100%). Besides I think suicide rate is a better indication of happiness. Buddy, you don’t have to become a Muslim to marry a young bride. I already told you that it’s legal in your back yard. Its almost as if your not paying attention to what I’m saying. Heck you don’t even have to marry the American girls. They will DO it with you anywhere, anytime. The hot topic used to be teenage pregnancy now it is childhood pregnancy in the USA. I invite you to stop worshiping false gods and to worship the only one worth of it, Allah. I welcome you with open Arms  .....
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| | Thursday, February 08, 2001 - 09:03 am JB True enough, but in Mudug I'm rich and exotic. In America I'm just another short white guy.
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